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I'm seeing little difference from pre to post patch, however, I always ran a good amount of tire pressure. I guess I'm not noticing the hit some of you guys have gotten being used to the lower pressure settings. I never liked them myself as it subtracted a bit from handling crispness.
My cars are generally set quite neutral and remain feeling that way post patch, although, car feel through force feedback has changed quite a bit. I guess for minor things, I see temps rising slower and tires seem a little more prone to rolling over(excess outside wear/heat up) than before.
I've noticed some of my sets feeling really bouncy now, especially my RB4 say on Sound City. The whole thing will hop sideways. It did before actually, noticably, but you can really feel it now through the improved FF. Oddly, it seemed to stop bottoming out at the end of the long back straight when you head down the hill and into the right hander. It bounces but doesn't seem to actually bottom out like it did previously...not sure what to say there. I actually had to raise it up a little before to prevent it from getting unsettled but now I don't, although I'm still way stiff for Sound City.
I'm not much of a hard core racer, so I'm sure I'm missing the finer variations, but I can only say good things so far about the new patch. If anything, I think it actually highlights flaws that were in your old sets as you can really feel chassis movement and tire behavior now, so much more than before. If there was a flaw or an area you could improve on, you can really find it now.
My cars are generally set quite neutral and remain feeling that way post patch, although, car feel through force feedback has changed quite a bit. I guess for minor things, I see temps rising slower and tires seem a little more prone to rolling over(excess outside wear/heat up) than before.
I've noticed some of my sets feeling really bouncy now, especially my RB4 say on Sound City. The whole thing will hop sideways. It did before actually, noticably, but you can really feel it now through the improved FF. Oddly, it seemed to stop bottoming out at the end of the long back straight when you head down the hill and into the right hander. It bounces but doesn't seem to actually bottom out like it did previously...not sure what to say there. I actually had to raise it up a little before to prevent it from getting unsettled but now I don't, although I'm still way stiff for Sound City.
I'm not much of a hard core racer, so I'm sure I'm missing the finer variations, but I can only say good things so far about the new patch. If anything, I think it actually highlights flaws that were in your old sets as you can really feel chassis movement and tire behavior now, so much more than before. If there was a flaw or an area you could improve on, you can really find it now.
That looks about right to what LFS is doing.
Man I'd love to see LFS at that level of road detail and update quickness, so violent and random compared to the smoothness of LFS.
Man I'd love to see LFS at that level of road detail and update quickness, so violent and random compared to the smoothness of LFS.
Wow...
...wow.
This is definately a big step up for the progress of LFS.
You definately seemed to fix one "flaw," if I could call it that, with the tire work. FF is very much improved. It feels so much more accurate, instant(up to speed), and you can feel everything. Precision feels better, more dead on. The speed was one thing that always used to feel off, alway seemed to be behind what was happening. Now it feels completely in sync with the frames you're looking at on the screen. The wheel pulls as the car bobs and shifts around, oh so nice. You can now feel bumps, dips, even air time. You can feel the weight of the car and how it pulls you around from the g-forces. You can actually point out specific flaws in suspension tuning easier. You can actually feel car movement, tire traction or lack there of, absolutely amazing.
Car speeds seem to be pretty similar, but yes, a feel of more grip. However, I think it's deceiving to some extent as the overall feel is now different, more viceral, dead on, and "as it should," thus seeming easier. I didn't really notice lap times varying much, grip, drift, whatever. I'd have to play around a little bit to really notice a difference.
I guess if I could gripe about something, I'd say the slip angle of the tires(say Supers) are pretty gentle till you get them overheated. Now with some real life tires, this may be dead on. Some real life tires are very fogiving and smooth in and out of slip and overall very easy to use. Others...well they can be a pain. Slip and grip can be a pretty sharp line as well as the difference between making and breaking traction. Some are just figity like that. When the tires in LFS get hot, they get a bit closer to this kind of feel. Maybe we just get some really forgiving tires.
The gripping, biting type of feel(the state where the tire switches back and forth from grip and slip) could be more abrupt. I'd like to feel some sort of edge to this static/kinetic friction transition, something I don't really feel with the Supers I'm running. Again, this is quite tire dependent as we know all real life tires very greatly in feel and behavior. We're just given one particular brand/model of a wide virtual selection.
(something I've alway wanted to see in LFS)
Maybe we could see a variety in models, not only tread pattern and orientation towards certain surfaces but also include the aspects of tire construction, things like number of plys, construction materials, various design aspects to create a certain goal for the tire. This would translate directly to the feel of the particular tire: stiff or soft, crisp or sloppy handling, ability to absorb or even transimt bumps, tendency to roll over or wear excessively along the shoulder or maybe a design to promote the lack there of through tread area stiffening. You may have 5 tire brands offering a R compound tire, each with their own construction design and design goals towards a certain end result. The feel and behavior would be different for each brand, and we the driver would have to design which brands/models fit us best for which particular situations and personal driving style. It would be neat to have this level of choice and feel, especially when tires play such a large roll in the feel and behavior of a car. Of course, this would be asking a lot for a game at this point in developement. ...maybe S3 or beyond, especially if we introduce other surface types like rain, mud, snow, ice, different levels of surfaces like smooth tarmac to rough tarmac to sandy tarmac, etc...
This isn't really a gripe but rather a direction of advancement I'd love to see, to actually get to that level of detail and choice would be beyond words.
...wow.
This is definately a big step up for the progress of LFS.
You definately seemed to fix one "flaw," if I could call it that, with the tire work. FF is very much improved. It feels so much more accurate, instant(up to speed), and you can feel everything. Precision feels better, more dead on. The speed was one thing that always used to feel off, alway seemed to be behind what was happening. Now it feels completely in sync with the frames you're looking at on the screen. The wheel pulls as the car bobs and shifts around, oh so nice. You can now feel bumps, dips, even air time. You can feel the weight of the car and how it pulls you around from the g-forces. You can actually point out specific flaws in suspension tuning easier. You can actually feel car movement, tire traction or lack there of, absolutely amazing.
Car speeds seem to be pretty similar, but yes, a feel of more grip. However, I think it's deceiving to some extent as the overall feel is now different, more viceral, dead on, and "as it should," thus seeming easier. I didn't really notice lap times varying much, grip, drift, whatever. I'd have to play around a little bit to really notice a difference.
I guess if I could gripe about something, I'd say the slip angle of the tires(say Supers) are pretty gentle till you get them overheated. Now with some real life tires, this may be dead on. Some real life tires are very fogiving and smooth in and out of slip and overall very easy to use. Others...well they can be a pain. Slip and grip can be a pretty sharp line as well as the difference between making and breaking traction. Some are just figity like that. When the tires in LFS get hot, they get a bit closer to this kind of feel. Maybe we just get some really forgiving tires.
The gripping, biting type of feel(the state where the tire switches back and forth from grip and slip) could be more abrupt. I'd like to feel some sort of edge to this static/kinetic friction transition, something I don't really feel with the Supers I'm running. Again, this is quite tire dependent as we know all real life tires very greatly in feel and behavior. We're just given one particular brand/model of a wide virtual selection.
(something I've alway wanted to see in LFS)
Maybe we could see a variety in models, not only tread pattern and orientation towards certain surfaces but also include the aspects of tire construction, things like number of plys, construction materials, various design aspects to create a certain goal for the tire. This would translate directly to the feel of the particular tire: stiff or soft, crisp or sloppy handling, ability to absorb or even transimt bumps, tendency to roll over or wear excessively along the shoulder or maybe a design to promote the lack there of through tread area stiffening. You may have 5 tire brands offering a R compound tire, each with their own construction design and design goals towards a certain end result. The feel and behavior would be different for each brand, and we the driver would have to design which brands/models fit us best for which particular situations and personal driving style. It would be neat to have this level of choice and feel, especially when tires play such a large roll in the feel and behavior of a car. Of course, this would be asking a lot for a game at this point in developement. ...maybe S3 or beyond, especially if we introduce other surface types like rain, mud, snow, ice, different levels of surfaces like smooth tarmac to rough tarmac to sandy tarmac, etc...
This isn't really a gripe but rather a direction of advancement I'd love to see, to actually get to that level of detail and choice would be beyond words.
There is no saturation. You just haven't found out to go faster yet. I think of this more in terms of levels. You start out, hop in a car, and go. Round and round you go, 10, 20, 50, 100, 1000 laps. At some point, you hit a wall. I'm down to 1.35 sec. Ok, now what?
Then you get into other aspects, things you never thought about before, like tuning. You go from the standard hard track setup to something your own. You toy with every aspect you can think of and try to make the car perform better. You start learning about weight transfer, center of gravity, and traction circles. You apply new concepts to your tuning setups. To lower you time. You hit a wall again. Time to learn something new.
You learn driving techniques and the use of racing lines. You find that optimum paths aren't perfect arcs but rather parabolas. You learn trail braking and the concept of throttle control. You learn that balance is not only tuning but also the aplication of user controls through controlled throttle/brake and steering inputs, always maximizing available grip. You learn the track inch per inch. You know when to brake, you know when to turn, you know where to aim for the apex, you know when you can add throttle. It can get quite methodical as you break a track down piece by peice to create a pattern of predetermined exact inputs that are determined through careful anylization of the track and car setup.
Again you go back to car setup and tune it for the track. You tune spring rates, dampening, brake bias, and gearing to maximize the car to the greatest effect for the given track. Even tire/alignment settings are tune individuially to maximize grip/longevity. Note that a setup for Blackwood normal isn't the same or maybe even close to a Blackwood Reverse setup.
You anylize, you tune, you run, you anylize, tune, run, ....your time goes down.
I haven't gotten to such a point. LFS is more recreational for me, so I'm not aiming to be so mythotical in such matters.
As well, I would HIGHLY suggest buying a wheel. Having the high level of control and precision provides tremendous benifits over other controller systems. The feedback is a very nice benifit as well as it tells you what's happening with the car and provides an additional sensory input other than visual and sound.
Then you get into other aspects, things you never thought about before, like tuning. You go from the standard hard track setup to something your own. You toy with every aspect you can think of and try to make the car perform better. You start learning about weight transfer, center of gravity, and traction circles. You apply new concepts to your tuning setups. To lower you time. You hit a wall again. Time to learn something new.
You learn driving techniques and the use of racing lines. You find that optimum paths aren't perfect arcs but rather parabolas. You learn trail braking and the concept of throttle control. You learn that balance is not only tuning but also the aplication of user controls through controlled throttle/brake and steering inputs, always maximizing available grip. You learn the track inch per inch. You know when to brake, you know when to turn, you know where to aim for the apex, you know when you can add throttle. It can get quite methodical as you break a track down piece by peice to create a pattern of predetermined exact inputs that are determined through careful anylization of the track and car setup.
Again you go back to car setup and tune it for the track. You tune spring rates, dampening, brake bias, and gearing to maximize the car to the greatest effect for the given track. Even tire/alignment settings are tune individuially to maximize grip/longevity. Note that a setup for Blackwood normal isn't the same or maybe even close to a Blackwood Reverse setup.
You anylize, you tune, you run, you anylize, tune, run, ....your time goes down.
I haven't gotten to such a point. LFS is more recreational for me, so I'm not aiming to be so mythotical in such matters.
As well, I would HIGHLY suggest buying a wheel. Having the high level of control and precision provides tremendous benifits over other controller systems. The feedback is a very nice benifit as well as it tells you what's happening with the car and provides an additional sensory input other than visual and sound.
This post is a good note to people concerned with getting that little extra from their computers. The understanding that not all ram is created equal is another good concept. Some people buy cheap ram, some pricy name brand. Others look at timing specs.
The numbering system is in order of importance, performance wise. The CAS timing has the greatest effect on overall speed. A CAS of 2 will be a good bit faster than a CAS of 2.5. The others fall in order of importance behind CAS. Getting ram that can do 2-2-2-5 costs some cash. At one point, I was considering getting some...for over $300. The timings have a greater impact on performance than bus speed. Buying high bus speed ram and just overclocking the bus and ram way up does provide a benifit. However, the latency timings will create a larger difference.
I've come across the trans thing over on the Nforce forums some time back. The idea's kind of interesting, the lowest isn't always the fastest. However, as far as I'm aware, it only seems to be that one setting.
The only ram I buy now is the one with the lowest CAS Latency. Too bad I can't get CAS 2 for my laptop...
There are memory testers available. They allow you to test memory performance and stability. You can find out if your computer is capable of running at lower settings or not. Either the memory stress tests will fail or your computer won't boot and you have to reset your BIOS.
The numbering system is in order of importance, performance wise. The CAS timing has the greatest effect on overall speed. A CAS of 2 will be a good bit faster than a CAS of 2.5. The others fall in order of importance behind CAS. Getting ram that can do 2-2-2-5 costs some cash. At one point, I was considering getting some...for over $300. The timings have a greater impact on performance than bus speed. Buying high bus speed ram and just overclocking the bus and ram way up does provide a benifit. However, the latency timings will create a larger difference.
I've come across the trans thing over on the Nforce forums some time back. The idea's kind of interesting, the lowest isn't always the fastest. However, as far as I'm aware, it only seems to be that one setting.
The only ram I buy now is the one with the lowest CAS Latency. Too bad I can't get CAS 2 for my laptop...
There are memory testers available. They allow you to test memory performance and stability. You can find out if your computer is capable of running at lower settings or not. Either the memory stress tests will fail or your computer won't boot and you have to reset your BIOS.
Yeah, on a tighter track with corners, it's not as big of an issue. It's just kind of stupid to have to point the nose way up in the air to be competitive. That's all. Maybe if they'd actually flip over it wouldn't bug me so much, lol.
I'm not saying I don't use the Formula cars. I have my occational fun with them. However, I'm currently not fond of any competetive racing with them. Do all the *R cars work the same way? Just curious if I could stick my GTR's nose way up and gain speed.
Until we get some serious aerodynamic modelling in place, I'm sticking to the more normal cars for serious racing.
I'm not saying I don't use the Formula cars. I have my occational fun with them. However, I'm currently not fond of any competetive racing with them. Do all the *R cars work the same way? Just curious if I could stick my GTR's nose way up and gain speed.
Until we get some serious aerodynamic modelling in place, I'm sticking to the more normal cars for serious racing.
I like the dirt effect. And it seems to work plenty well. The only thing I'd change would be having the effect tire type dependent. A racing slick's ability to pick up and hold debris is very different from a normal passanger car tire. This variation should be moddled in LFS. Knobby and Normal road tires should hardly produce an effect since their compound is a bit hard to really hold anything, Super should to an extent as it's more like a street legal racing compound, and racing slicks would get the full effect. Other than that, I like the effect.
Ther per area(outer/middle/inner) effect would be a bonus, possibly pressure senstive like tire temp. If you ran a lot of camber, you may pick up a ton on the inner edge but very little on the outer.
Oddly, this effect may turn very benficial on dirt tracks and even snow if we get it. The pressure sensitivity and specific area location could help develope traction on deformable surfaces.
Ther per area(outer/middle/inner) effect would be a bonus, possibly pressure senstive like tire temp. If you ran a lot of camber, you may pick up a ton on the inner edge but very little on the outer.
Oddly, this effect may turn very benficial on dirt tracks and even snow if we get it. The pressure sensitivity and specific area location could help develope traction on deformable surfaces.
I asked the same question some time ago. I wondered how the heck they could be going soooo much faster than me. You know what they told me? Put the front end ride height all the way up. You'll go faster. I don't know why, but it works. I'm hoping it'll get fixed when the Devs get back to the physics part of improving the game. Right now, I just stay away from the Formula cars for competetive racing because of this. You either race with your nose way up in the air or you're not competitive...kind of dumb if you ask me. Oh well...
Looking forward to it. Your movies are fun to watch. I too was thinking of doing some sort of drift bible movie, covering the techniques, integrating the technicle aspects of it with some fancy graphics, kind of both a visual demonstration and class time. Too bad I'm really lazy and not much of a movie maker. I hope you pull it off with aces. 
I usually stay out of the Formula and Mrt simply because they're so spin happy...that and the downforce thing with the Formula is messed up, high noses go fast
illepall Until that's fixed, I'm kind of staying away from it during online racing. However, I'm getting interested in getting some drifting footage built up in one. Now only if I can figure out how to stop LFS asking me to re-unlock it every time I turn off or restart my computer... Maybe Scawen will give me like 1000 unlocks a month or something, lol.
I usually stay out of the Formula and Mrt simply because they're so spin happy...that and the downforce thing with the Formula is messed up, high noses go fast
illepall Until that's fixed, I'm kind of staying away from it during online racing. However, I'm getting interested in getting some drifting footage built up in one. Now only if I can figure out how to stop LFS asking me to re-unlock it every time I turn off or restart my computer... Maybe Scawen will give me like 1000 unlocks a month or something, lol.Nice vid, great drifts. Is that with a keyboard?! (seems so from the replays)
Edit:
Just saw the second one. Watching all that drifting makes me want to get myself up to par again, lol. Drifting the Formula car is hard. The rotational inertia is so low and you've got nothing for steering angle, fun to try though.
Still not sure about the keyboard thing...
Edit:
Just saw the second one. Watching all that drifting makes me want to get myself up to par again, lol. Drifting the Formula car is hard. The rotational inertia is so low and you've got nothing for steering angle, fun to try though.
Still not sure about the keyboard thing...
Last edited by Flying Squirrel, .
From what I found, the CPU is the biggest factor in LFS. If you want higher framerates, up the CPU. LFS doesn't really care so much about what video card you use. I started off with an ATI 7200 graphics card and an AMD 1.2Ghz processor when I first found LFS. Running AI, the thing got bad. I quickly upped both to an AMD 2400 and ATI 9500. I had the processor first, and that actually made the biggest difference by far. The new video card didn't add much. I play lots of other games, so what makes LFS run fast isn't my only concern. I have since upgraded to an ATI 9800 Pro as they have gotten quite cheap.
I never buy the $400 ones. It always seems stupid. I always aim for the best bang for the buck. When that top of the line $400 graphics card drops down to $100-$150 in the future, then I'll consider it.
A good place to check out is www.tomshardware.com They have good reviews on graphics cards and processors and directly compare brands and models to one another on a variety of benchmarks. The place is a good tool for finding out which brand and models are better. Then you can check out pricing on www.froogle.com or www.pricewatch.com or www.ebay.com to find out which of the models turns out to be the best bang for the buck. Spend some time comparing and searching, and you'll find yourself a setup that's both fast AND cheap.
Oh by the way, $2000 for a computer system?! Not if you know what to look for. I can build you a low end top of the line system for under $1000 or a budget gaming system for under $500. It's all about picking and choosing the right parts and the needed parts when focusing on gaming performance. There's places you should spend a little extra and places you can certainly skimp. With a bit of online time researching components and doing some price searching, anyone can build or upgrade their current systems to decent specs for little money. I think the most I ever spent on a full system was $1300, but that was 6 years ago and PCs were a little more costly back then. I guess I spent $1600 on my laptop, but they're different. You pay for the smaller size and portability. As well, laptops are generally less upgradeable, so you kind of have to go to the top end level to not get outdated too quickly. PCI-Express fixes this some as laptops can now upgrade their graphics cards, so it's not as big of a problem. Now-a-days, I can't see spending over $1000 on any decktop system. If you are, you're either paying for a brand name, or are paying too much for components or on stuff that doesn't really make a difference.
I never buy the $400 ones. It always seems stupid. I always aim for the best bang for the buck. When that top of the line $400 graphics card drops down to $100-$150 in the future, then I'll consider it.
A good place to check out is www.tomshardware.com They have good reviews on graphics cards and processors and directly compare brands and models to one another on a variety of benchmarks. The place is a good tool for finding out which brand and models are better. Then you can check out pricing on www.froogle.com or www.pricewatch.com or www.ebay.com to find out which of the models turns out to be the best bang for the buck. Spend some time comparing and searching, and you'll find yourself a setup that's both fast AND cheap.
Oh by the way, $2000 for a computer system?! Not if you know what to look for. I can build you a low end top of the line system for under $1000 or a budget gaming system for under $500. It's all about picking and choosing the right parts and the needed parts when focusing on gaming performance. There's places you should spend a little extra and places you can certainly skimp. With a bit of online time researching components and doing some price searching, anyone can build or upgrade their current systems to decent specs for little money. I think the most I ever spent on a full system was $1300, but that was 6 years ago and PCs were a little more costly back then. I guess I spent $1600 on my laptop, but they're different. You pay for the smaller size and portability. As well, laptops are generally less upgradeable, so you kind of have to go to the top end level to not get outdated too quickly. PCI-Express fixes this some as laptops can now upgrade their graphics cards, so it's not as big of a problem. Now-a-days, I can't see spending over $1000 on any decktop system. If you are, you're either paying for a brand name, or are paying too much for components or on stuff that doesn't really make a difference.
You guys talk a lot about damage but very little on what happens in LFS during a race.
I normally drive with the aids off, short of the auto clutch as I don't have a 3 pedal system with a stick shift...maybe one day. I don't really try to rev match or anything when driving. It's odd cause I drive a manual in real life and always constantly make an effort to rev match both up and down gears. In real life, my car will lurch or buck, sometimes violently if I neglect my matching. LFS isn't so physical with you. Without the feeling, it's a lot harder to make an effort to do such things. About all I do in LFS is let off for a second between shifts so I don't bury the needle in the red. S1 punished you easily if you didn't. S2 doesn't seem to care so much. Still, I do it. In LFS for down shifts I don't even match the rpms, just gas off. For the road cars, it doesn't matter much unless you're cornering at the limit. You can upset the rear tires easily and start a drift. I drift a lot, so I personally don't care. I've gotten used to it. In the lower powered cars, it doesn't matter too much what you do with the gas pedal.
Now, when you're working with the Formula cars, it's a different story. If you're off with the matching, you're quite likely to whip the car around. When I first started driving the Formula cars, I actually put the blip and cut aids on to keep me from spinning out all the time. With so much power to the ground on such a light vehicle, delicate footwork becomes oh so much more critical. THIS is where things like flat footing becomes a no no. You just can't do it, not safely anyways.
If you're really working the limits of the car, I'd suggest making an effort to match rpms. If you're in a lazy mood, throw the auto blip and cut on. If you're not running the car at the limits all the time, you have some play room for mistakes and you can leave them off. I personally like them off as I have more fine control over what happens. It's quite helpful when drifting when you purposely want to upset the car. In racing, it may or may not be of use, maybe at times. For speed, eh, I guess that depends on if you screw up because of it. One mistake will take out any gain you would have gotten from it. It's up to you.
I normally drive with the aids off, short of the auto clutch as I don't have a 3 pedal system with a stick shift...maybe one day. I don't really try to rev match or anything when driving. It's odd cause I drive a manual in real life and always constantly make an effort to rev match both up and down gears. In real life, my car will lurch or buck, sometimes violently if I neglect my matching. LFS isn't so physical with you. Without the feeling, it's a lot harder to make an effort to do such things. About all I do in LFS is let off for a second between shifts so I don't bury the needle in the red. S1 punished you easily if you didn't. S2 doesn't seem to care so much. Still, I do it. In LFS for down shifts I don't even match the rpms, just gas off. For the road cars, it doesn't matter much unless you're cornering at the limit. You can upset the rear tires easily and start a drift. I drift a lot, so I personally don't care. I've gotten used to it. In the lower powered cars, it doesn't matter too much what you do with the gas pedal.
Now, when you're working with the Formula cars, it's a different story. If you're off with the matching, you're quite likely to whip the car around. When I first started driving the Formula cars, I actually put the blip and cut aids on to keep me from spinning out all the time. With so much power to the ground on such a light vehicle, delicate footwork becomes oh so much more critical. THIS is where things like flat footing becomes a no no. You just can't do it, not safely anyways.
If you're really working the limits of the car, I'd suggest making an effort to match rpms. If you're in a lazy mood, throw the auto blip and cut on. If you're not running the car at the limits all the time, you have some play room for mistakes and you can leave them off. I personally like them off as I have more fine control over what happens. It's quite helpful when drifting when you purposely want to upset the car. In racing, it may or may not be of use, maybe at times. For speed, eh, I guess that depends on if you screw up because of it. One mistake will take out any gain you would have gotten from it. It's up to you.
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